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Since I printed the review of the mysterious PIL
Gildersleeves 1980 video in F&F5 Ive learned that it
was actually a proper video film and not a TV special
as I had first thought. I managed to make contact with
Paul Dougherty, who directed and edited the film, and
took the chance to ask him some questions about the
film which he kindly replied to...
Paul Dougherty: I just want to preface my answers by
saying that I never released this video and I'm still
not sure how it leaked into the bootleg world...
F&F: How did the film come about? Were you a fan, did
you know PIL? Around the time there was a lot of talk
about PIL getting into film and video. Were you
brought in to work along with them on their video
projects or was the film your idea?
PD: My brother was/is a friend of Jeannette Lee. Both
of us were huge fans of the band. Because of my
brother's relationship with her I thought it worth
asking permission to videotape the band. They said it
would be ok. All arrangements were verbal. I thought
my only opportunity to tape them would be at the NY's
Palladium (aka Academy of Music) on 14th St. I recall
the stagehand union at the Palladium required a $500
fee which I thought was prohibitive. (It was 1980 and
I was 27. $500 seemed like a lot of money then and I
was bank-rolling the project.) Pil decided to do an
unpublicised gig a few days later at a heavy-metal
club near CBGB's called Great Gildersleeves. I
thought their decision to do this gig might have been
influenced by a desire to be videotaped, but that is
speculation on my part. Additionally two other things
that made the whole project feasible. My friends Pat
Ivers and Emily Armstrong of Advanced Television
helped organise the production with their extensive
contacts in the production world. I came from the
editing world and was able to used the
state-of-the-art editing rooms where I worked to put
the program together.
F&F: Do you know what date it was recorded?
PD: I haven't been able to nail that. It was a few
days after their first official concert in New York at
the Palladium. (April 20th 1980)
F&F: Has the film got a proper title?
Not really, just the PIL Tape.
F&F: Did you get any feedback from the band about the
video, did they like it?
PD: I don't remember getting any. I sent them a work
in progress and then the final version...
F&F: What did you plan to do with the film? Did you
plan to release it commercially?
PD: I tried to interest their record company in it but
was met with silence. Though I think the project
turned out well, it fell short of being a "commercial"
quality video. I never heard back from the band as to
whether they wanted to do anything with it. I did
several screenings in the US and Europe (along with my
other tapes) in the years that followed. I travelled
with the PIL tape and it never left my sight, which
is why it never leaked for close to 15 years.
F&F: You mentioned you were a fan of the band, had you
saw them live before you filmed them, if so, what did
you think? Personally I feel they are one of the most
underrated bands ever, Metal Box was one of the finest
records ever made...
PD: No, never saw them before 1980. I thought they
were great, Lydon was in top form. I guess what I
liked best about them is that they, almost alone, as
an outgrowth of punk, left the teen/pop world of rock
and went into uncharted waters. Most bands who do
this get soft, not so with them. Yeah, Metal Box is a
milestone.
F&F: Ive heard that there is a version of your film
that incorporates various news footage from Northern
Ireland along with various other news footage, is it
true?
PD: I did a traditional live-coverage edit on four
songs but decided to do something more ambitious with
Careering. By the time I did the PIL tape I had
started to develop a reputation for making video-art
with a musical connection. I had access to some
exciting new tools that would facilitate repositioning
and compositing various images and bits of footage
with the performance. For the most part the result
was meant to look as though it was projected behind
the band. I'm generally happy with the way it turned
out. At seven or so minutes Careering starts to run
out of steam (visually) towards the end. Also towards
the end are some colour images I added that look
cheesy to me now.
F&F: I know you must have done a few screenings of
your film in the UK because I recently got a b&w flyer
from one of the screenings Did you do many screenings?
PD: Not really. It premiered at NY's Kitchen on
26/1/81, I recall it being sold-out. Then I ran it
again at the NY's Peppermint Lounge on 13/2/81. Also
did a sold-out show at London's ICA on 11/10/81. All
these shows included my other videos, which are
described on my web page. F&F: Ive only saw 4 songs
from the gig, was the whole gig filmed? What is the
full running time of your film?
PD: We taped the whole show but I decided to edit 5
songs that had the best coverage. Songs are
Careering, Public Image, Another, Low Life & Bad
Baby. The whole thing runs 25 min.
F&F: Are there any plans for you to release the film
officially? I certainly hope so because its such a
great gig! Footage from that era PIL is extremely rare
and they were such a great band, Im sure it could do
very well.
PD: No plans for a commercial release, that's
something Lydon & Co. would have to bless.
F&F: If you do release the film will it be the version
including the news footage or the version that just
features the gig?
PD: I repeat, there are no plans for a commercial
release but I suppose an "underground" commercial
release might include Careering. As I have no
rights to the images and old footage I used, it would
not be included in truly commercial (hypothetical)
release.
F&F: Have you any idea how the bootleg videos of your
film surfaced? The amazing thing is that until a
couple of years ago no one even knew PIL had played
the gig, let alone knew that it was filmed!
PD: I have a strong hunch how it leaked but I'm not
certain. Because I know all to well how easy it is to
copy videos, I was able to keep it bottled up for over
15 years.
F&F: Were you involved in any of PILs other proposed
video projects, if so, what were they? Were you
involved with the Riot at the Ritz stuff, were you
there?
PD: No. Though they talked about exploring avenues
beyond making records and touring I suppose that
allowing me to videotape them would be an example of
their independent efforts. In interviews around that
time they described themselves as something like a
communications company. Yet for all these ambitions
they had a reticent, reclusive profile. I liked that
about them, but it also kept me from pressing them
about the video. They held back from the standard
industry self-promotion. Granted there was a lot of
interest in what John Rotten/Lydon would do next, so
he/they could afford to be a tease about it. This
reticent quality seemed to inflame media interest. I'm
fascinated by the idea of a person or outfit, that is
the subject of media interest, being disinterested. As
time goes by it seems more and more revolutionary. (A
good example of this can be found in the book
Ringolevio by Emmett Grogan.) There is nothing new
about "playing hard to get" as a way of spurring
interest. Sometimes its just a strategy (I would not
apply that to PIL). But it seems increasing
impossible for people to be genuinely disinterested in
media attention. When it happens it's almost headline
news and can drive the media mad.
F&F: In the end it might not of amounted to much, but
at the time PILs fascination with film & technology
was seen as crazy, whereas now its bog standard for
bands to be involved in video or interactive computer
projects, stuff like U2s Zoo TV for instance. What do
you think of todays music/video crossovers? Do you
feel that your stuff was revolutionary?
PD: Music/video/computer crossovers are inevitable and
somewhat standard now. Lots of media technology is
used to obscure the fact that many recording artists
are not good performers. So one side of me (the
editor) likes a truth-in-advertising approach that
shuns tarting up a performance when no-frills coverage
would convey (somewhat transparently) a kick-ass
performance. This is not a holy grail for me but it
is rare in music videos. I guess some of this
preference goes back to the lo-fi, primitive roots of
punk. But in real life, it's the job of the record
company and the army of specialists they hire, to make
the recording artists look good by tarting things up.
When computers and video are part of a band's palate
and not a service provided by their record company,
things could get juicy. Zoo TV was a step in this
direction. As if to contradict what I said earlier, I
don't mind going to the opposite of representing live
performance. That's to say, forget about attractive
performers, fake or otherwise. Make music videos
without performances, like little movies or art-films
with cool soundtracks. The Chemical Brother's video
with the dancers is like this. I think the PIL video
was revolutionary in one small way. Because I was
employed at an editing facility, my boss (God bless
him) let me play with the technology. For that reason
I did not have to watch the clock or count the
dollars. That allowed me to pursue the efx treatments
in Careering that would have been too costly
otherwise. In those days only a superstar would be
given that kind of license. Today thanks to computer
media technology people can do this at home, so more
work will enjoy this luxury as time goes by. Though I
would not have proposed it, taken together my video
work might have some revolutionary qualities. (Go to
my web page and judge for yourself
http://postlit.com/PLPpages/himself.html) If it
does, its because of the licence allowed/exercised in
this personal form of television. Though things will
change, "personal television" remains an oxymoron...
ED: I first heard of the boot videos in 1997 when I
saw it on a US video dealer's list. Did anyone have
it before that?, if so, in what part of the world?
Has anyone any "chain of title" stories about how it
surfaced?
